163 replies to this topic

[Cat]

Well, I looked all over and it appears that after a certain amount of time, members may no longer edit their own posts.

I can't find where to change it, if it can be, if it should be, so we'll have to wait for Darlene to come in.

[arby]

Gee, yea, the edit button is gone! Wow..... we need that!


Ok. thanks Mt Rider........ how far are we going? and yet, thinking more, you want at least enough food to get you through on basics as much as possible til First fruits from gardening will come in.
Wow. Im not even there yet! Ok...... I admit. I will cheat, but thinking hard on quantities will be a good mind exercise. I am actually only beginning to really grasp that and how much I use say in a few days or a week depending on what I am fixing for myself out of homecanned or dried foods. Also since I have been baking some, I have a better idea how much flour and bakin powder and salt and sugar I need. ( I spent a long time renting only a bedroom and gettin back to cooking for myself and realizing how much it takes, and the screwed up schedule I have most months can make it difficult for me to get everything I really need, so its beena challenge, but now I am getting more keen on it and that will help. Be a good math exercise, lol. I will work on that , hopefully by sometime tomorrow. And I do think I will just consider certain 'thangs' in my environment , um, er, resources! lol... well its, um, innovation! And Im clearing out in the wagon anyway. ( Not that I am a stealer in real life at all. nope, not me! I hate thieves...)

seriously, I will try and do enough math on several types of items and make a list to post. Good ideas about a medicine wagon. Does anyone have splints? I do have a snake bite kit, now that I dont need one for this scenario! ( But do for my region! ).

[gulfcoastruth]

Can't recall if it was mentioned before, but every wagon will need big heavey buckets of axel and wheel grease!
Also, the wheels need constant repair, so all that stuff. Wagon wheels were wooden with metal rims.

[Necie]

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread (will when I have time ).

Thought ya'll might be interested in this. Real life wagon traveler.

www.wagonteamster.com

One of the regular customers at the restaurant where I work met this guy. He stopped and helped him bale hay and spent the night at his place. He brought me in a newspaper with a story about him in it. Really cool. He has a blog on his site about his travels.

[Mother]

Bravo Mt_Rider. A wonderful tool to make us THINK!!! You come up with the neatest ideas. Thanks for this one.



Okay, first, I just got back from five days of travel in a motor home and am a bit tired yet so will have to add to this as I get my brain in order. Please my forgiving as I ramble here with thoughts in no particular order at this point.



Trying to take along even enough food for the time it would take us to reach our destination would take up a lot more weight and space than you might imagine. If you add to that enough food to last us until we were established you could have the wagon over half full right there. Add to that all the supplies and materials that you would need to set up housekeeping and provide sustenance and a living after that would be very challenging.



The Belknap diary, referred to in one of the links on Mt_Rider's first post, is one of the most famous records of how a family prepared for the trip. There were other diaries as well, all good sources of information, but many were written before the trip started when an idealistic belief was still very strong. The actual trip was not nearly as wonderful as most people were led to believe.



If I read Mt_R's scenario right, she is suggesting that we are going to be starting a new community that does not include electronics and perhaps very few modern inventions. Those you do bring along will have to be durable or expendable for life will not be all that easy despite the beauty and wonders of the "wilderness" to which she is leading us. While you are preparing for this exercise, I suggest that you not just read what is written as much as think through what would be the realities of travel in this way (thanks Gulfcoastruth for your taste of reality) and base what you are taking along on the fact that you will not be living as you do now if you take this journey and in fact, it might be years before you would have any of the niceties you have now.



She is also telling us that we can take along only what we "already have". That could be even more challenging than what the pioneer had as they often sold everything they owned that could not be taken along and bought what they needed. Food alone will be a challenge for many as a lot of us store food in the form of frozen or home canned. Food in jars is not appropriate for wagon travel as they are shaken way too much to be either safe from breakage or from spoilage. Canning equipment, likewise, might seem a necessity and indeed, it could be, especially the big water bath canners or heavy pressure canners but more for heating water for use in bathing and etc or hauling water from a stream. It might be possible to bring along enough jars to use in canning once we get there, but how much space and weight would they take up? Do you have the old-fashioned reusable zinc lids and rubber rings? Again, remember the weight and space limits.



How many have cast iron cookware? You can take you lightweight cooking gear but let me assure you it will hold up little better than the tin of day's past when used repeatedly over a fire but then again, how many cast iron pans can you take and still remember the weight and space limits. Cast was usually carried in containers made for them and attached to the outside of the wagons but the weight was great and had to be figured in. People soon learn on the trail that it would be much better to throw out Grandma's beautiful dresser rather than the cast iron pot they need daily for cooking.



Okay, just a few things to think about. I'll be posting the list of supplies recommended by the Mormons for those people journeying to Salt Lake City.

[Mother]

This is a Mormon list for travel's west to Utah. It takes into consideration that there were many going together just as we would be doing for this exercise.

Requirements for Mormons on their journey to Utah



1 strong wagon, well covered

2 or 3 good yoke of oxen, ages 4-10

2 or 3 good milk cows

1 or 2 good beef

3 sheep, if can be obtained

1000 pounds of flour or bread stuff in good sacks (corn meal ?)

1 bushel of beans (dried legumes)

100 pounds of sugar

1 good musket or rifle to each male over 12,1#powder,4#lead

1 pounds tea, 5 pounds coffee

A few pounds of dried beef or bacon

25 pound sack of whole grain

25-100 pounds farming and mechanical tools

Clothing and bedding per family, not to exceed 500 pounds

Cooking utensils, bake kettle, fry pan, coffee pot, tea kettle,

Tin cups, plates, folks, knives, spoons, pans, etc.

A few goods to trade with Indians

15 pounds iron and steel (for repairs?)

A few pounds of wrought nails

1 gallon alcohol

10 pounds apples, 5 pounds dried peaches, 25 pounds salt,

2 pounds pepper, 5 pounds soda, cayenne pepper,

1 pound cinnamon, 1/2 pound cloves

20 pounds soap

A good tent and furniture for each two families

1 or more sets of saw and gristmill irons to each 100 families

1 fish seine for each company, 4 or 5 hooks and lines

2 sets of pull(e)y blocks for crossing rivers to each company

2 ferry boats to each company



Each wagon to carry one ton without people or 2800 pounds with

them.

10 extra teams per company of 100





N.B. (?)-- In addition to the above list, horse and mule teams

can be used as well as oxen. Many items of comfort and

convenience will suggest themselves to a wise and provident

people and can be laid in season, but none should start without filling the original bill first.

[Amishway Homesteaders]

Thanks mother for the list.

We have most of what is on the list on hand. Good thing we collect and use the 'old things'.
the animals we share own or can bater for from the Amsih - (and we both can hand milk a cow or goat) - so we are set there too.

We are also lucky that Michael likes to do things 'the old ways' as he has blacksmithed, plowed with a team of horses (1,2,4 and even 6!), can fix almost anything that may go wrong, even has some of the tools we will need to fix the wagon and wheels. More hand tools (and he uses them ) then you will ever need.

One of the Amish shop owners is even building a covered wagon for someone. We tried to get a photo but they couldn't pull it out of shop yet (we will keep tring)

So count us in - we are ready and packing things up for the trip.

[Mt_Rider]

Mother's back. Now this wagon train will get rolling..... And Cat's gonna get our 'edit' function button fixed so we can continue to pack........

Huh? Waddya mean I gotta unpack and start over.....I haven't even gotten past the animals & kitchen stuff. 'Course, that's my main area of concern. [MtR is signing up for the driving course with SIX oxen, not just four. Too much stuff! ]



Well, ok...considering that the pioneers got to sell off their civilized stuff in order to get more appropriate primitive stuff, I guess we'll follow that too. I guess I'll be leaving Great-Aunt P's dresser behind.


But I've got this idea that we need some specialized wagons. Gulfcoastthruth mentioned the WATER WAGON. I think the "financing backers" can manage a few more Special wagons. Like the Medical Wagon, Water wagon [cuz I know carrying enough water on each wagon used up a lot of their weight allotment too. I'd like to propose [since we are needing to establish our community from scratch] a Library/School wagon. {BOOKS!} We may have to call for volunteers to drive these extra wagons. Any other special wagons that the community wants to propose? For professions/needs we'll have once we get there?


Gulfcoast....about the axel grease. While trying to get my windmill to SHUT UP this weekend [my dad suggested WD40 and it worked..no more annoying SKREEK,SKREEK] I was actually thinking about our wagon wheels. I have an extra metal rim and center for a wagon wheel. The wood parts have just about rotted away tho. {not looking as 'decorative' as it did 10 yrs ago} I always kind wondered if it would come in handy.


Might sell some stuff an get extra mules/donkeys and pack saddles....cuz MtRider wants to take along too much stuff!

Seriously, IRL that WOULD be the hardest part for any Bug-Out, Evacuation, or Relocation for me during Crisis/Hard Times. Too much stuff. Weak point showing thru this mental exercise.

MtRider [back to sorting and packing..... ]

Edited by Mt_Rider, 13 October 2009 - 01:55 AM.
mangled sentence..lol

[Darlene]

The 'edit' function is set at 24 hours. I did that because in the past we've had members get into a snit at the site and delete all their posts which then throws entire threads into a mass of confusion.

If you need, for this exercise, the edit function for a bit longer, I can change the permissions for you. Let me know.

[Mother]

Darlene, would it work for us to quote reply to our own posts and edit it at that point? That would bring the new info forward as well as edit it....wouldn't it???? or not??? I'm as computer savy as an infant and some of them are more savy....

[Mother]

Darlene, would it work for us to quote reply to our own posts and edit it at that point? That would bring the new info forward as well as edit it....wouldn't it???? or not??? I'm as computer savy as an infant and some of them are more savy....


*****edited to see if it worked******

[Leah]

Thanks for letting us know about the edit function, Darlene. I have wondered.
In threads with broken links would it make sense to contact the thread moderator with the correct links and have him/her edit them? I hate to have broken links in my posts.

End of thread derail... back to the wagon packing.

[Mt_Rider]

I hate broken links too, Leah. LOL I feel like fixing ALL the smilies that didn't transfer from our last format. OK, I'm detail-picky. If anyone wants to PM me for an edit for their post on a broken link, I'd certainly be willing. [be patient....I WILL get to it... LOL ]


====================
OK, y'all.... We've got wagons to pack. Mother has a pretty good idea on Quoting Oneself and then change within the quote. Is that doable? Mebbe even better cuz we'd all know if someone edited their lists. I find other people's lists interesting and informative.




New DATA on our Wagon Trip:

1) With a good stiff wind in our 'sails', we should be arriving at our new home after two months of travel. .....ah....er, if anyone knew me IRL, you'd know that I DO seem to collect the UNEXPECTED EVENTS. So better make sure you are prepared to be on the road longer if unexpected delays happen.


2) If anyone else wants to join us, c'mon and start packing. If you are missing key items, wellllll, think of what you can "sell" for the money to buy your cow or whatever. [check Mother's Mormon List] But another alternative: I'd be willing to feed an extra body if they could take over the primary driving of our wagon. Might even throw in the first female goat born to one of my 4 does once we get there too. Any takers? Cuz DH might be needed for a medical thang and ....my stamina [lets face it] will not be so good for driving all day.

3) Did I hear that Micheal [AmishHomesteader] knows blacksmithing? As in just horseshoes or making stuff from iron/metals???? If so, I propose we also get him an occupation Special Wagon for blacksmith stuff. That Mormon list included hunks of metal too.


MtRider [ sheeeesh, I'm *trying* to get to my packing but.... I spent all day hand sewing repairs on a certain donkey's new coat! ]

Edited by Mt_Rider, 13 October 2009 - 06:51 PM.

[Mother]

At one time I had done a series of articles for the Historic Village Museum that I worked for. I used them at various times as a basis for workshops and seminars as well. There is a perspective in them that gives some insight into getting ready to leave your home and family to travel in a covered wagon to the great unknown.

I posted them in the Fireside in case anyone would like to read them.

Here are a few more thoughts to get you thinking.....

One question I received often from women was a personal one. "How did women go to the bathroom when on the prairie or on the trail without outhouses?" My reply was...Long dresses and open crotched pantaloons were a wonderful invention..... So were chamber pots.....Porta Potties were not pulled along behind the wagons and emptied at each town. Now maybe that's more info than you needed but if we are going to try to make this realistic enough to understand the possibilities we need to be thinking all things through. Long skirts are really not practical on the trail or around a fire but they did have their uses......

Just how much toilet paper can you get in a wagon? Do you know what leaves are safe to use as alternatives?

How many diapers can you wash and hang inside a wagon? Will they dry and if they do, will they be covered with trail dust? Is there an alternative?

What if someone gets ill on the trail? Will you have the ability to care for them? Medicines? What about their comfort? Have you ever been sick in a moving vehicle? You should try a wagon if you think that's bad.

Can you cook food over an open fire? What about doing so in the rain? In a storm? Do all your pots and pans have covers? Can you keep your salt and sugar and etc dry? Can you think ahead far enough to have 'something' for the kids who are crying with hunger and can't wait until the rain stops? Or perhaps it's a hungry DH that's in need of feeding despite the rain.

Did you think to bring along a hat? A wide brimmed hat? A rubber poncho? Rubber boots?

Okay, I'll quit for a while. Now I have to get my OWN wagon packed if I'm going along. I've experienced covered wagon living before. Not months but enough to make me realize that you can get by with a whole lot less than you think. Packing to MOVE to another area is a whole other experience I believe. Like Mt_R I'm tempted by so many things that I THINK I need but I know exactly how small a space a wagon contains.

By the way....Last year I taught Covered Wagon Living to our home schooled 7 year old GS. We 'furnished' a 1/12 scale replica covered wagon with miniatures we either found or made (am still finding things actually as this year we are doing a chuck wagon study). It was an experience for both of us and a whole lot of fun but it taught me that even using miniatures I couldn't get it all in.....

[Mt_Rider]

"How did women go to the bathroom when on the prairie or on the trail without outhouses?"

I heard it was as simple as a blanket mounted on two sticks & two women friends to hold the screen ......after you'd walked a ways out so that the long line of wagons fore 'n aft couldn't see. Mebbe we can have one of those "Presto - now it's a circle and NOW it's a pop-up potty tent" things. I have one that is really a child's indoor tent [no floor, etc] but it's kinda short. But....such business in not done by ladies standing anyway.... lol MtRider is not really a willing candidate for long skirts. LOL I'd forget and try to leap up on a horse....


Two things that can sometimes get set aside in harsh, primitive conditions: Sanitation and Modesty. After enjoying marshmallow treats [one must lick one's fingers] around a dark campfire, I got a better view of my blackened fingers. Not all of it was burned marshmallow. I exclaimed: I'VE BEEN EATING WITH THESE FINGERS....


MtRider [ 'nuff gabbing and get to my packing list...]

Edited by Mt_Rider, 13 October 2009 - 10:02 PM.

[Annarchy]

This is great! I've saved my Word file and am editing it, to make sure my bags are properly packed.

You've specified our weight limit, apx. 12,000 lbs. and the dimensions are 12' L x 4' W x 4' D x 11' H , to make a trip in about 2 Months. Mother has posted some wonderful information, that has caused me to re-think my packing.

Since I am dragging DH along with me, we are talking about this and he has asked me a 1,000 questions, of which these are the only ones I haven't been able to provide the answers for so far:

Questions for this scenario;

1. Can we bring any of our modern conviences?
2. Can we salvage/barter/trade the rural, cities we pass?
3. What type of landscape do we need to traverse?


Gulfcoastruth, I saw your caravan! LOL!!! Even got to get a ride in one of the 'follower' vehicles, I'd run out of gas in one tank and the toggle switch was broken for my other tank and I needed to get 10 miles home, at night, to get my papa to help me remedy the situation. So, here I am in a dress and high heals, stuck in the middle of nowhere with a broken vehicle. The driver gave me a ride and told me of your wagon train adventure.

We've seen several wagon trains go through our area, including Teen Challenge convoys, I am so inspired by their teaching ethics. My DH & I have spent years of backpacking and taking teens with us for the 'back to our roots' adventures into the wilderness. I will admit, now days it is difficult to find any place that is free of man's hands.

[Mt_Rider]

good...we'll likely need MrA's skills with all the hunting for meat and stuff we might do.

1) yes
2) prolly a few tiny communities but availability will be hit 'n miss

3) .....um, prairie, hilly forests, Mt.s, .....reading the history book for the answers.

...and before anyone asks, we'll end up in a good zone for growing but still seasonal. Late Nov for first frost. In our UNreality, we're leaving in early March to arrive by planting in May. Hoping not to run into any late snow. Spring rains will be bad enough with trying to get the wagons/teams thru the mud. That's one thing that could hold us up. Swollen creeks/streams is another. We have routed for bridges or barge passage for the rivers. [pssstt, Mother. What do you call those contrivances with a flat bed boat that hauls with a long rope across smaller rivers/streams. My mind is blank. ]

No hostiles except possibly thieves. There are *always* thieves and cutthroats in these adventures.



MtRider

[Amishway Homesteaders]

a Library/School wagon. {BOOKS!} We may have to call for volunteers to drive these extra wagons.

Well I can't drive it as I will have my hands full but Lori wants to be the Librarian! And if you do take a wagon full of books that will help me out as she wants to take along her "Childrens Library" she has here (well over 100 + books). Seeing she works as a Librarian now it will be a good fit.

[Amishway Homesteaders]

3) Did I hear that Micheal [AmishHomesteader] knows blacksmithing? As in just horseshoes or making stuff from iron/metals???? If so, I propose we also get him an occupation Special Wagon for blacksmith stuff. That Mormon list included hunks of metal too.

ain't nothing to right home about , but
I can get by as they say with what we may need to get people back on the road. Only made a few shoes and at the time I would not have put them on a horse but? ya never know.
Have to get a new forge so we will be ready. There willl be enough 'metal' on the side of the road (busted wagons and stuff) that we can use for spare parts.

[Amishway Homesteaders]

want to learn a little bit about your covered wagon " before you buy one"?

go here:
http://library.think.../6400/wagon.htm
just chick on any letter and it will tell you alll about that part of the wagon.
lots of other information too.