5 replies to this topic

[Darlene]

Heavenly Father,

I'm not sure where to start this morning Father God. I find myself these days being in almost constant communication through prayer, with You...seeking Your direction, seeking Your words, Your help, Your intervention, Your covering, Your hand of protection. I pray as I sit and listen to others, needing Your help with each step I take.

I've been pondering something the past day or two that kinda stuns me. With all that You have placed before me these days, I can't help but see (because You've opened my eyes) the fact that if You had called me to this spiritual work 3 years ago, I would have failed miserably. I would have let those I love down, not being able to meet their needs in the manner that they really need and the suffering that they have been going through, would have continued because I didn't know...I didn't understand then, what I understand now...spiritually, in my life and others lives. I don't mean to imply in any way that I've 'arrived', because I certainly haven't, but You've grown me, You've broken me, You've taught me, You've put me back together in a manner that glorifies You that states emphatically that You truly are God...that You truly are a loving and tender and holy, holy God. You're still my Heavenly Father too though because my heart craves the relationship between a child of God and her Heavenly Father.

So anyway Father, the point is, that You saw 5 years ago, what I didn't and couldn't see, so You began to move, even then Father God, in my life, in others lives, doing the work that needed to be done in me spiritually, because You knew even then that You would use me to accomplish Your perfect will in someone else that I hold dear to my heart. You could not have used me back then Father because I would have surely failed. You first allowed me to get to the point where I was broken...to the point where I willingly chose to humble myself before You because by then, You were all I had, You were my only hope. But more importantly, You chose to reveal to me, Who You really are...You touched depths in my heart that no human power ever could touch and I began to believe and understand You a little better and in the end, a very real and deep love for You began to grow in my heart.

That has all translated into where You've brought me so far. After being so independent, self willed and rebellious all my life, I find myself so incredibly dependant on You, my need for You is felt very intensely in my heart. I think a part of me is afraid to ever go back out into the world alone, without You, and I don't think that is a bad fear at all. Even more than that, I don't think my heart could handle the hurt I would feel at hurting You by turning my back on You...that's how important You are to me.

It stuns me to reflect back and remember when I hit my bottem and shattered into a million pieces because it was there that the truth that lay in my heart, that I wasn't even aware of (but You knew) finally surfaced. I remember feeling so stripped, unable to do anything but fall on my knees and confess that I was afraid of You...that I was afraid to trust You...that I really didn't know You...that I couldn't even say I liked You much less loved You.

I sit here in tears as I write that because it was true, and it blows me away that You, and You alone, took me from there, to here where I am now. I guess that's one of the reasons that I know without a doubt, that when I say I love You, I mean it because we both remember the day I admitted that I didn't. That's why when I say I trust You, it's because I remember when I admitted the fact that I didn't trust You. So on and so forth through all those declarations...the reason I know now, is because I remember the time when I didn't. Does that make sense Father? So I know what I'm talking about because I've lived both sides...I was honest when I didn't, and I'm just as honest when I say I do.

So anyway, when I look at the call You've laid before me, I know that it is a very holy thing indeed. I wasn't equipped spiritually for that call in the past, but today I have Your peace because I know that as I stay humbled and dependant on You, that You will be faithful to somehow bring Your eternal purpose for others lives to fruition.

I want to thank You for the provisions You've already put in place...the people whose hearts You've burdened to interceed in prayer. That alone has touched my heart and has had a profound affect in helping me to feel safe, knowing that You are in control and have my back. That's why it's all about You Father because only You could orchestrate, with such holy precision, all the infinite details needed. Help me to keep my eyes on Jesus, regardless of how rough the waters might get...it would break my heart if I were to sink, but as I type that I remember that You'd never let me sink anyway.

I love You and I need You. Thank You for saving me and for this relationship with You that I cherish so dearly.

Bless the study Father for it is Your Word. Etch Your truths on our hearts because Your Word sustains me at the most surprising times.

In Jesus Name I pray,


4. For it is God's servant to thee for good. But of thou dost practice that which is evil, be afraid! For not in vain doth it bear the sword! For God's minister it is, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

5. Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.


Watchman Nee comments on the word "servant" in the 4th verse and writes, "The same Greek word as for deacon in 16:1 (there rendered deaconess) and 1 Tim. 3:8."

The rvbv writes: "Verse 4: For it [the authority] is a servant of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for not in vain does it bear the sword. To "bear" is, literally, to bear constantly, illustrated in the provincial Roman magistrates' habitual wearing of the sword. It was also borne before them, in public processions, as a symbol of their right to punish by death. This is in accordance with God's covenant with Noah, after the Flood, which covenant remains in force: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." Those who decry "captial punishment," are themselves withstanding the Word of God as to the very foundation of human government.

For a minister of God it is! an evenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

There are people in every community who live in constant terror of government, because of their evil-doing. Let no Christian be in such a position! You say, Would the magistrate have a right to deal with a real Christian, if he became an evil-doer? Most certainly; and would be bound to do so. Peter says: "Let none of you suffer as a murderer, or an evil-doer, or as a meddler in other man's matters," showing that Christians as such, have no protection from human law. But Peter's exhortation has not kept some true Christians out of these things; insomuch, indeed, that God's established government on earth would not or should not permit them to go unpunished here, (if murder or crime had been done); although the blood of Christ was their entrance into Heaven!

Verse 5: Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, - not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

Believers are to be in subjection, not only to avoid earthly governmental dealing, but because of a loving conscience toward God, - knowing that in being subject, they are doing right, as well as avoiding trouble.

The constituted authorities include all the civil officers, state, county, and municipal; together with the police, militia, and military forces. There are many indeed in these foolish days who call themselves "pacifists," and decry the work and office of the soldier. Yet we believe they would with alcrity telephone for the police if they found marauders breaking into their houses! Police protect towns and cities. State constabulary and militia, under the hand of the governor, protect life, liberty, and order in the state; and a national army does likewise for the nation.

It is God who has allowed the formation and growth of nations, and given them "the bounds of their habitations"; and the "authorities" who govern them do so by Divine command. They "bear the sword," - whether for order within the nation, or for defense toward an outward enemy. Therefore it is folly to call the work of a soldier evil, and to confuse personal murder with the public execution of justice. When "soldiers on service" (Luke 3:14, margin), asked John the Baptist: "And we, what must we do?" his answer was not, Resign your commissions, or, Leave the army. On the contrary he recognized their work as honorable, saying to them only: "Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse anyone wrongfully; and be content with your wages" (generally, with soldiers, small enough!)

Cornelius, the centurion of Acts 10, "a devout man, one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always," heard the gospel at Peter's mouth and believed it, and was filled with the Holy Spirit; and he kept right on being a soldier, a minister of God's service along the line of government. Such men as General Havelock, Gernal "Chinese" Gordon of the British Army; General O.O. Howard and General "Stonewall" Jackson, of American Civil War fame; and General Allenby, in the World War, have performed nobly and ably their soldier's duty, - the while maintaining a Christian's walk with God. (Pacifists and "Internationalists" are (sometimes doubtless ignorantly) deadly enemies of God's order. it is a cowardly and a decadent generation that is willing to enjoy a heritage purchased at the cost of blood and tears, and then with an ignorant or basely perverted conscience say, "I do not believe in war or in fighting," - a generation ignorant, first, of the very Scripture we are now studying, which tells us that magistrates, bearing no vain swords, are ministers of God; ignorant, second, of the lessons of history.

Effeminacy, dilettantism, and loss of patriotism, have always gone together. The hordes of barbarians from the North came down on a Rome enfeebled by luxury and hideous sin, and we know the ersult! Today America is filling up with the same sort of moral weaklings! We abhor war; but war there will be. We say to "pacifists": Study the Scriptures and history, and be awakened from a fool's dream of unrealities.

To those "conscientiously objecting" to bearing arms, we say: Study God's Word here in Romans 13. The magistrates, the rulers, are ministers of God, "bearing not the sword in vain." Pacifist principles are doomed to defeat, for they are anti-Scriptural. You ask me, Would you fight? If called to military service by my government, I should answer that my ministry is preaching God's gospel of grace; but that I should gladly go to the battle front, and be placed in any position of danger, and should minister the gospel even to an active enemy, or to a prisoner from the enemy's ranks, with the same earnestness which I should hope to show toward men of my own country. On the other hand, I should abhor even the thought of divulging my country's secrets to my country's enemy. This would be rebuked by God Himself, who established nations, and gave them the duty of protecting their citizens and their borders.

Strange dupes are American "pacifists" and "internationalists"!

Christians who desire to know the conditions of the age, and how rapidly "The iniquity of the end" is rushing toward us should read pages 68 to 140 of A.C. Gaebelein's 'Conflict of the Ages'. While we are not to be perplexed by the terrible things happening in the world: for the Lord said, "When ye hear of wars and rumors of wars see that ye be not troubled; for all these things must needs come to pass." Nevertheless, we should not be as the leaders of Israel - blind to the days in which they lived. All these new forms of power - Communism, Facism, Naziism; and also the subtle powers of evil working in America are preparing the way for the Antichrist.

Several easily procurable books, such as 'Tainted Contacts' by Co. E.N. Sanctuary; 'The Red Network', by Elizabeth Dilling; and 'Pastors, Politicians, and Pacifists', by L.F. Smith and E.B. Johns, expose the poison of this "deadly white snake," pacifism; and should be in the possession of every believer.

In parallel columns on pages 100 to 107, in 'Tainted Contacts', Communists, Socialists, Internationalists, and Pacifists, are shown to be bed-fellows of common aims. The "Federal Council of Churches," (perhaps the most insidiously serpentine in its operations of any organization in America) is sen to be hand-in-glove with all these evil influences.

Again we say, Read the Scriptures, and re-read them! They alone enlighten, reprove, correct, instruct.).


Heavenly Father,

It is Your Word so I ask that the truth that You intended, be birth into each of our hearts that we might become strong in the knowledge of Your perfect will. If we don't understand, then we cannot stand.

Bless this day and all who read this study.

In Jesus Name I pray,

[Mt_Rider]

Aiieeeee....this is a part that I have some confusion about. I 'get it' that we are under the rulers...cuz God 'places and deposes rulers as He choses' [somewhere in the Book of Daniel]. But IS this section of Romans saying anything then, about those that would

1 ) work to overthrow a overtly wicked leader [Hitler], and I'm not referring to elections, of course, but where elections will not be held....does that make a difference or no?

2 ) defy laws to show compassion [like the Underground Railroad here and the assisting of the Jews under Hitler]

3 ) break the law [as Daniel and his friends did] when it goes against the precepts of God... *** I most certainly do not believe this one. Jesus answered that we are to give "Ceasar" what is his but Ceasar [govt] should not be taking what is not his. If it pertains to God, we have but one Ruler over all.

But the other two.....compassion comes from God, certainly Compassion that leads us to risk putting ourselves in danger [from an ungodly govt....such as Paul found himself under] for the sake of others and for following God's assignments. These verses draw out a very thin line which I think that we need to ponder and pray about!!!!


MtRider [...pondering again...]

[Darlene]

In doing some research, I came across this article on the American Revolution and Romans 13. I think it makes some valid points:

Some people contend that the American Revolution represented a violation of basic Biblical principles and embodied rebellion, or a spirit of anarchy. They argue from Romans 13 that since government is of God, then all government decrees are to be obeyed because they proceed from God.

But this is only one of two theological interpretations of Romans 13--interpretations representing a debate that has existed among American Christians for centuries.

On one side was the belief that when government speaks, God requires us to obey. This same theological position resulted in the "Divine Right of Kings" philosophy which reasoned that since the King was chosen by God, God therefore expected all citizens to obey the King in all circumstances; anything less was rebellion against God.

The other interpretation of Romans 13 was set out in a 1579 work by Frenchman Philippe du Plessis Mornay, which was printed in English as "A Defense of Liberty Against Tyrants." This treatise took the position that government being ordained of God was referring to the general institution of government rather than to each distinct government.

God ordained government in lieu of anarchy. Yet, there clearly have been governments in recent years that promote anarchy, rebellion, and wickedness (e.g. Qadafi in Libya, Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Idi Amin in Uganda). Has God endorsed those governments? If so, He has contradicted His nature and is commanding submission to the very things that He hates--which isn't possible.

Most Christian denominations during the American Revolution all believed that Romans 13 meant they were not to overthrow government as an institution and live in anarchy, but that this passage did not mean they had to submit to every civil law. (Note that in Hebrews 11, a number of those who made the cut in the "Faith Hall of Fame" as heroes of the faith were guilty of civil disobedience--including Daniel, the three Hebrew Children, the Hebrew Midwives, and Moses.) Furthermore, the Apostles in Acts 4-5 also declared they would obey God rather than civil authorities.

The real key to understanding civil disobedience and Romans 13 under this latter view, then, is to determine if the purpose of opposition is simply to resist the institution of government in general (which would be anarchy and would promote a rebellious spirit), or if it is to specifically resist bad laws, bad acts, or bad governments. The American Founding Fathers embraced the second interpretation of Romans 13, and therefore strongly opposed "Divine Right of Kings" theology, which was derived from the first interpretation of Romans 13. For example, Founding Father James Otis in a 1766 work argued that the only king who had any divine right was God; beyond that, God had ordained power to people.

Despite their rejection of the theory that the King spoke for God, a generally submissive attitude prevailed among the Americans. The Founders pursued peaceful reconciliation; it was Great Britain that terminated the discussions. After the separation had occurred--following years of peaceful entreaties--some British leaders specifically accused the Americans of anarchy and rebellion. To this charge, John Quincy Adams responded:

"[T]here was no anarchy....[T]he people of the North American union, and of its constituent States, were associated bodies of civilized men and Christians in a state of nature, but not of anarchy. They were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct."

The spiritual nature of the American resistance became so clear that even in the debates of the British Parliament, "Sir Richard Sutton read a copy of a letter relative to the government of America from a [Crown-appointed] governor in America to the Board of Trade showing that....If you ask an American, 'Who is his master?' He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ."

Therefore, under the Framers' understanding of Romans 13, the American Revolution was not an act of anarchy or rebellion; rather it was an act of resistance to a government that violated the Biblical purposes for which God had ordained civil government. In fact, so cognizant were the Founders that they would account to God for what they had done and be justified in His eyes, that the flag of the Massachusetts Army proclaimed "An Appeal to God," and the flag of the Massachusetts Navy likewise declared "An Appeal to Heaven."

Additionally, the original State constitutions were overtly Christ-centered in their wordings and appeals. Quite simply, the Framers and most American Christians of that day believed they had conducted themselves in a manner in which they were not in rebellion to God or the Scriptures.

The second factor which the Framers believed gave them Biblical justification was the fact that they did not initiate the conflict. The Framers had been committed to peaceful reconciliation and had pursued that course for 11 years before the separation from Great Britain. There was no desire to raise arms against England, their mother country and the land of their birth.

Nevertheless, in the last two years of their peaceful reconciliation attempts (e.g., as in May 1776 with their Olive Branch Petition), their entreaties and appeals were met solely by military force. In fact, King George III dispatched 25,000 British troops to invade his own Colonies, enter into the homes of his own citizens, take their private possessions and goods, and imprison them without trials--all in violation of his own British common law, English Bill of Rights, and Magna Carta.

The Framers cited Biblical justification to defend their homes, families, and possessions. In their understanding of the Scriptures, God could bless a defensive war but not an offensive war. In fact, so reticent were they to separate from Great Britain that it was a full three years after King George III had sent armed troops against his own citizens in America before they announced their separation.

John Adams authored a manifesto that reflected submission to God: "We, therefore, the Congress of the United States of America, do solemnly declare and proclaim that...[w]e appeal to the God who searcheth the hearts of men for the rectitude of our intentions; and in His holy presence declare that, as we are not moved by any light or hasty suggestions of anger or revenge, so through every possible change of fortune we will adhere to this our determination."

The fact that they had been attacked completely changed their status in the eyes of God, for the Bible justified self-defense against an aggressor.

Some pacifists have noted that the American Revolution resulted in a loss of life, and therefore cannot be justifiable in the eyes of God. This position demonstrates a lack of Biblical understanding about life. Clearly, protecting innocent life is a recurring theme in the Bible. Since God is the author of life, and since He alone holds the keys of death, He is to determine when life is to end. However, taking of life is not always taking of innocent life. God allows humans to take human life on three occasions: for the cause of civil justice; for military conflict, and in defense of one's life, family, or property. Therefore, the fact that the American Revolution was a defensive rather than an offensive war made all the difference in whether it could be a righteous war.

A final indication that the Framers believed they were engaged in a defensive war was the fact that throughout the course of the struggle, the conflict was often described by the Americans as a civil war rather than a revolution. Only in later years was it called a revolution. Under the view of Romans 13 as understood by the Framers, the American Revolution was indeed a Biblically justifiable act.

For me, it's still an area that will require ongoing prayer, but to be quite frank, many of the 'laws' today, violate the Constitution that this country was founded on. My country, my government is the original foundation that was laid.

[Mt_Rider]

Thanks for searching that out. I hadn't heard that before. Interesting.


MtRider [...yep, would rathe ponder now than stand and stare with my mouth dropped open catching flies later.... ]

[Darlene]

It would be easier if I did not know about this but that probably is not what God would want. Aside from what we are doing and telling others, I'm not sure where to go with this. If anyone has suggestions, I would like to hear them. We can't just do nothing and we can't unlearn it.

That reminds me of when I notice something and wish I hadn't of noticed it...or known about it lol. I still feel honor bound to obey what I know He would have me do, whatever the particular circumstance is.

As far as "what to do?"...

God has obviously brought this secret out into the light to you and your husband. In turn, you are sharing that with others, shedding light on this secret the enemy wants to keep in the dark. I feel that's the first thing you should do, and are doing.

But, as far as specifics on "what to do?", that I believe is something God will uniquely and individually lay on each person's heart. What He might have me do, might be different from the call He places on your heart in this regard. I'm not sure whether or not my state participates in funding this area, but if it does, then I need to pray about what He would have me do too.

I think your putting aside tithes to match what is given to that program against your will is a very beautiful thing to do. Thoughts of writing your state's government expressing your beliefs is an idea. Getting involved with educating people and helping them to bear the child they think they wouldn't want, could be another idea, but that's why it's something personal between you and the Lord. What specifically would He have you do? He's obviously laid it on your heart heavy for a reason, so He definitely has the answer.

Thanks for sharing this though...I had no idea.

[Darlene]

Uh oh...I somehow accidently removed snapshotmiki's post...OR, the problems we're having with this message board somehow deleted it when I went to post my response.

Anyway, I was able to go back and copy her original post which is as follows:

"Posted Today, 04:42 PM by snapshotmiki
After reading this study, I feel compelled to share a conflict that DH and I have with our Government. DH did some research and found that 17 States use a portion of our sales tax revenues to fund "family planning" clinics and abortions. We still have not completely resolved what to do about this for us. To know it is being taken and used for something that we are so against is really troubling. At this time we are saving our reciepts, adding up sales tax and putting that amount in tythe. We stay in 2 of the states that do this and we when we are able to we will probably move to a State that does not participate. It would be easier if I did not know about this but that probably is not what God would want. Aside from what we are doing and telling others, I'm not sure where to go with this. If anyone has suggestions, I would like to hear them. We can't just do nothing and we can't unlearn it. "